...thoughts expressed here are not necessarily final.

September 25, 2006 we had a GREAT Anniversary trip!

	We stopped at Berea to take in the crafts and met up with a blue possum in a pear tree... and further down the road we saw water coming from a rock- the rains locally were about ten inches in a few days, and caused flooding all over Kentucky...
Here is a view of our cabin- it rained all night and sang us to sleep...	...Pine Mountain was just on the verge of the first frosts of the season- soon this will be aglow in reds and oranges...
..some FANTASTIC music...Christie Burns and Butch Ross have been performing as a duo since 2003. With Christie on hammered dulcimer and Butch on mountain dulcimer and guitar, these two bring traditional tunes to life in unexpected ways.	...On to Cumberland Gap and some more beautiful scenery and some fair to middlin' museum fare...
This pooch had a grand view...	We were able to see the auctions at the last day of the yearling sale at Keeneland- it set a record of almost 400 million over the 14 day sale.
	And Earnie got to meet Tiznow, two time winner of the Breeder's Cup...what an awesome horse, with a ton of personality!

I normally do not partake in discussion of this ilk in proper company such as Bible studies or group setting, but SINCE this came up and there is much discussion on the cohort regarding it, I feel the freedom to weigh in to offer some humble observations on a most volatile issue. As stated the purpose of the discussion on the cohort is to apply critical thinking to theological isses. we come from a variety of positions on this particular discussion. I am not trying to convince or argue, but present what can be considered one man's consideration of the scriptures in this regard, and to point the coversation to our glorious Redeemer! Soli Deo Gloria!

Foreknowlege and Predestination

Some have argued for a cause and effect reality in this issue. I will point out that God is First Cause else he is not God. I do not deny mystery is involved.

Seems to me that "Those he foreknew he also predestined" carries no indication that foreknowldege precedes predestination. There is no causal relationship in "also", it does not say "therefore" ...He simply did both things.

To say that one precedes the other in a point before time even existed, and we only existed in the mind of God is problematic. There are several problems with this. I'll touch on a few...

In this view God is not really electing anyone- He is ratifying a choice they make. It limits God to peering down the corridors of time to see what we will do. That seems to me to make it man centered and grace has nothing to do with it. Election occurs before time, where we exist only in the mind of God. God does not take in information about you at election- there was no information in existence that was not His thought. Your choice for faith existed only in His thoughts about you.

It would seem to limit God’s choice and make it no choice at all- if all he has to choose from are those who believe and therefore have some merit in his sight, and he cannot choose anyone he wishes, then the word election has no meaning. Election is about choice.

If election is based on foreknowledge, it is the work of man in choosing to believe that is the operative agent in salvation, not grace. In the Summa, Aquinas called positions that take it to mean that meriting action (man’s choice) somehow causes God to choose insanae mentis., or unsound thinking. My point is that this line of investigation did not begin at the reformation.

Folks who hold to the "ratification" view are often said to be trying to get God "off the hook" for consigning people to hell... the biblical view is that fallen man is hell bound and it is only by the Grace of God any of us are saved. No one goes to hell who wants to live in the presence of the Living god and all He is for eternity. It important to point out that in keeping with a view of election conditioned upon foreknowledge, God also sees the ones who will not believe and creates them in spite of this knowledge. God has the power to not create them and thus spare them the torment of Hell, but He does it anyway. So God doesn't get "off the hook" after all...

'Nuff Said...